Commons:Categories for discussion/2024/09/Category:Cristo Redentor (Rio de Janeiro)

Category:Cristo Redentor (Rio de Janeiro)

From the discussion here, English language should be the most recommended language for category names. This work is universally known in English as "Statue of Christ the Redeemer" (or sometimes "Christ the Redeemer statue"). To align with parent category Category:Statues of Christ the Redeemer in Brazil, this category should be moved to the more recognized English name of the statue: Category:Statue of Christ the Redeemer (Rio de Janeiro). Note that the final decision may affect similar categories like Category:Cristo Redentor (Barra Velha) and Category:Cristo Redentor, Ilhéus. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:18, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose I think only 5% of people in Brazil speak English. That's way to low to change the name. Maybe changing the name of the other categories would be justified depending on how many people speak English in the countries where those statues are located. I don't really know, but at least IMO it's a bad idea to change categories to English in cases where the percentage of people who speak the language there is extremely low. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Adamant1 have you seen the discussion conclusion? Since "Libingan ng mga Bayani" was moved to Category:Heroes' Cemetery in the Philippines despite many English-language sources from the Philippines not using the English name ("Libingan ng mga Bayani" is even used in everyday communication here), it appears English should be the principal language to be used in categories. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to rehash the Village Pump discussion, but the guideline is pretty clear that things should be taken on an individual bases depending on the circumstances and as I pointed out in on the Village Pump most people in the Philippines speak English. So I don't think it's an issue in that case. Whereas most people don't speak the language in this case, so it is. That's just the kicks of having a guideline that depends on the circumstances. It's at least better then pander to every nationalist who comes along and wants to change everything to their "native language" regardless of how it is IRL or how many people speak the language there. Not to say you or anyone else is doing that here, but I have seen it happen. See the whole "Czechia" versus "Czech Republic" thing for one example. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose Category names "should generally be in English" but proper names (the names of individuals or specific objects) are a reasonable exception (though I prefer parent categories for classes of things to be in English). --Rudolph Buch (talk) 15:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
•  Rename See the Universality principle, which says that names of subcategories should be in line with the parent category, in this case Category:Statues of Christ the Redeemer in Brazil, and that should be in line with Category:Statues of Christ the Redeemer by country and so on. Reasons might be:
  • Categories are not just for inhabitants of a country, but for the whole world. People who do not speak Portugese should also be able to find files and categories about this subject. Wikidata items and descriptions in the native language can be a solution for inhabitants.
  • The category structure is also a system. In a system all objects about the same subject, should have the same name. Application: More and more editors use templates, for categorizing and navigation (for example for countries, provinces and other subdivisions). Then all subcategories should start with the same name, otherwise the template is not working.

--JopkeB (talk) 03:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata items and descriptions in the native language can be a solution for inhabitants. You make a fair point. Things like this could and probably should be off-loaded to Wikidata. From what I've seen a lot of individual works, including statues, don't have Wikidata items though. I feel pretty strongly that users of Commons should be spending more time documenting works and artist on Wikidata though. Since we clearly benefit from it on our end. But it's a little hard to say we should use Wikidata as the default for this stuff when it's still lacking entries for a good percentage of stuff on here. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose Place names including all other geographical names and building names should use the endemic form all the time.There is no reason to transform it into English language. Else agreeing fully to Rudolph Buch. Matthiasb (talk) 07:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Matthiasb not the case at all buildings. We have Category:Main building of Moscow State University, Category:Canton Tower, and Category:Tokyo Tower. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 10:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm as much for policies, guidelines, and standards around most this stuff as the person on here. But I think a good middle ground at least in this case is to say things should be translated into English as a good practice but leave it at that and let whomever creates the category name it what they want. Then eventually fix it at some point on our end. Or better yet, just suck it up and leave things alone. Otherwise you lose a lot of the flexibility and usefulness of a site like this and it just turns into an exercise in a few gilded blowhards lecturing everyone else about how to do things. That's one of the main reason's I don't contribute to Wikipedia anymore and we don't need to transfer it over here by making hard and fast rules about everything. Not to say anyone here is doing that, but I think it's better to just take this on an individual bases like I said above and not try to turn it into a debate about other categories or otherwise make it into a bigger thing then it is. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Rename Category:Cristo Redentor (Rio de Janeiro) to Category:Christ the Redeemer (Rio de Janeiro) per JopkeB. Commons:Language policy clearly states, "Category names should generally be in English, excepting some of proper names, biological taxa and terms which don't have an exact English equivalent." Since the statue has a widely-known English name (Christ the Redeemer), this category (and its subcats) should use the English name, according to this policy. "Statue of" is unnecessary, since my proposed name "Christ the Redeemer (Rio de Janeiro)" clearly indicates that this category is about the landmark statue in Rio de Janeiro, and I named the category of the replica statue near Kolkata in India as "Christ the Redeemer, Eco Park, New Town" (by the way, many Indian languages, including Bengali, use transliterations of the English name "Christ the Redeemer" instead of the Portuguese name when referring to the famous statue). Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 10:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Strong oppose "Christ the Redeemer" is the representation of Christ, not the proper name of the monument. That one is "Cristo Redentor", others with the same representation have names like "Cristo Rei", "Cristo Salvador", "Cristo da Paz", and so on. Category:Statues of Christ the Redeemer in Brazil means only that type of representation, and has nothing to do with the monument name. The appropriate example would be Category:Replicas of Cristo Redentor, Rio de Janeiro, which mean replicas of that specific monument, and not other representations of Christ the Redeemer in Rio de Janeiro (yes, there are more statues with that theme there). Furthermore, the monument is widely known as "Cristo Redentor" and variations of it everywhere, not just in Brazil, so don't try to fix problems that don't even exist.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 11:21, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  Pinging @Jmabel @Rkieferbaum @Joalpe who may be interested in this discussion. Darwin ^Ahoy! 11:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

   weak disagreement. In general, I advise against translating official names if no official translation is reliably documented. For example, it wouldn't make sense to refer to Rio de Janeiro as "January River" on Commons, and the statue is officially named Cristo Redentor. However, I’ve noticed that the English translation is widely used in this case. I am unsure of the origin of this English translation, and unless it is deemed reliable based on official sources, I would prefer to keep the name in its original language. Joalpe (talk) 11:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  Furthermore, the monument is widely known as "Cristo Redentor" and variations of it everywhere, not just in Brazil, so don't try to fix problems that don't even exist.

  I have never heard of the Portuguese name, and have never seen it anywhere till the creation of the category Category:Christ the Redeemer, Eco Park, New Town. This is when I realized that the monument is called "Cristo Redentor" in the native language. If the monument is indeed widely known by the Portuguese name, why are we using the English translation in English Wikipedia, Simple English Wikipedia, Wikidata, and several other Wikimedia projects?

  In general, I advise against translating official names if no official translation is reliably documented. For example, it wouldn't make sense to refer to Rio de Janeiro as "January River" on Commons, and the statue is officially named Cristo Redentor. However, I’ve noticed that the English translation is widely used in this case. I am unsure of the origin of this English translation, and unless it is deemed reliable based on official sources, I would prefer to keep the name in its original language.

  It all depends on how widespread the English translation is, and not what authorities call it officially. For instance, Ivory Coast is officially known as "Côte d'Ivoire", but most English-language sources still use "Ivory Coast". Similarly, India is officially known as both "India" and "Bharat" (cf. Part I of the Constitution of India), but virtually all English-language sources stick with "India". Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 14:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  Cultural annexion. Pah. And English/U.S. cultural imperialism. How cool! --Matthiasb (talk) 21:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose the exact same logic of this proposal could be applied to rename Category:Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris to "Cathedral of Notre-Dame of Paris" or even "Cathedral of Our Lady of Paris" and I don't see any of that happening any time soon. The policy states that names "should generally", not always, be in English. Cristo Redentor qualifies as a proper name as much as the Notre-Dame and similar monuments. Rkieferbaum (talk) 11:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

 Comment Despite numerous oppositions, I remain firm on using English names for famous monuments, as long as the names are widely used and reliably sourced. "Christ the Redeemer" is the widely used English name for the landmark monument. Similarly, "Cathedral of Notre-Dame of Paris" is one of the widely-used English translations of the name of the famous cathedral in Paris, although "Notre-Dame de Paris" is also widely used in English-language sources. However, "Cathedral of Our Lady of Paris" is not a widely-used English translation of the name, and you will have a hard time to find reliable sources using the name. Of course, you don't have to implement the Wikipedia guideline on reliable sources. You can simply go through the reliable English-language sources commonly used by Wikipedia. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 14:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not that hard of a time though... Rkieferbaum (talk) 14:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Weak oppose. I'm a native English-speaker have been familiar with the statue for over 60 years, and would never have thought to use an English-language name to refer to it. - Jmabel ! talk 16:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It is natural to be accustomed to the native Portuguese name instead of its English translation if you're familiar with the monument for over 60 years. On the other hand, despite being a non-native English speaker, I was not aware of the native name until when I uploaded my photos of its replica statue at Category:Eco Park, New Town (near Kolkata, India) in Commons. When I was photographing the replica, the information board called it "Christ the Redeemer" without even mentioning the Portuguese name. This implies that the English name is widespread instead of the Portuguese one, which is mainly restricted to Lusophone and Hispanophone communities (10.6% of the world population, as opposed to 18.63% for Anglophone communities). Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 02:19, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sbb1413 agreed. Here in the Philippines, we call it "Christ the Redeemer statue" or "statue of Christ the Redeemer" (or the Filipino "estatwa ng Christ the Redeemer"), as we are a mainly English-speaking country. We don't use the Portuguese name to refer to the statue. It is very sure that none of the main news outlets in the U.S. refer to the statue by its Portuguese name. w:en:History Channel's w:en:Life After People uses the English name, not the Portuguese name, of the statue. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)